The Metaverse and Virtual Experiences with AmazeVR's Ernest Lee

Richard Kramer: Welcome to Bubble Trouble, conversations between independent analyst Richard Kramer, that's me, and the economist and author, Will Page, where we lay out some inconvenient truths about how financial markets really work. This week, and in coming weeks, the Bubble Trouble team will turn our attention to the phrase du jour, the bait of all click baits, the mother of all bubbles, that is the metaverse. More in a moment.

Will Page: So we welcome to the stage Ernest Lee. And we'd like to do that thing on Bubble Trouble that we always do with guests, which is we just want to hand you the microphone, Ernest. And just take your own time to explain who you are, what the company is, what the experience the company is giving to the users of AmazeVR. But most importantly, tell our audience how they can follow your work as well.

Ernest Lee: Well, first off, thank you guys for having me on the show. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm Ernest Lee, our co CEO at AmazeVR. And AmazeVR is a VR concert platform company that brings artists closer to fans than ever before. Now, I think when your audiences hear VR, they automatically think of gaming. But what we're building at Amaze is trying to expand that, is trying to make VR mass adopted to make it appeal to the masses. And actually, what first got me into VR was not a game at all, it was actually a music experience itself. So back in 2015, I had my first VR experience, it was a one-off experience. It was U2 song for someone, I saw it on a really janky Google cardboard headset. Uh, I was actually working overseas in Japan at the time, and concerts are my happy places where I find a cathartic release, where I find so much joy. But I hadn't really had the opportunity to see a lot of shows, um, while I was overseas.

So when I saw U2, uh, and I saw Bono within arm's reach of me, and I was, we're sitting in these communal circles. And as the song progress, we're teleporting across different cultures and societies around the world. I felt this visceral reaction, I felt this connection to humanity. And I knew that, uh, this technology was really going to change the way that we connect, tell stories, creates, and I knew that I needed to be all in. So that was the initial onset of it all. Um, so it actually had nothing to do with gaming at first. And we hope that we can actually popularize this and make this appeal to a broader audience. Yeah, so if you would like to learn more about what we're building in Amaze, please go to AmazeVR.com or follow us on socials at AmazeVR across all platforms.

Will Page: Fantastic. Now, Ernest, we're playing a little game as we explore the metaverse on this podcast, which is to give you the word count of a tweet, which I think is 150 plus characters. But what in a tweet length comment would you say as a simple statement of what the metaverse is?

Ernest Lee: Yeah, so that's uh, a big question. But if I were to attempt to answer that in tweet, I'd say the metaverse is a digital layer over the physical world that expands our reality.

Will Page: Now the reverse of that is what is it not? How would you tell somebody what the metaverse isn't? Where's the heart, the confusion that we're hearing around this return of the metaverse?

Ernest Lee: Yeah, so there's multiple ways we can take this. You know, I'd say the metaverse is not us interacting with technology, but it's us integrating with technology. And what I mean by that is in the metaverse, you will be interacting with technology, sure. But when you think of interacting, there's two parties. There's the user itself, the audience and across as a technology itself. But there's a separation between tech and user tech in person. But I think in the metaverse era, it's really about how do we make this a seamless experience. And it really expanding this human experience by integrating technology into our lives even further.

Will Page: Sure. AR, VR, whatever you want to call it, does suffer from that kind of mere reaction, which is, uh, the boy who cried wolf. Again, they've always promised to deliver, they never actually do. How would you tell our audience at this time, AR, VR, is going to deliver the goods?

Ernest Lee: You know, I think it's both similar and different to some of these past hype cycles. I would say it's similar. Metaverse is similar in that it's actually very reminiscent of how VR felt back in 2015, where there's a lot of excitement, a lot of hype. People were excited about the TK-1 headsets, they're making mass headsets, like these cardboard versions. Oh, there's a lot of these big tech investments happening. And also VCs are just pouring money into the industry. But if you peel back a few layers, you'd realize at that time, there really wasn't a lot of substance there quite yet. And I think the same as the metaverse today actually.

The reason why I think it's different, I mean, all technologies are dependent on previous technologies, of course. But the metaverse is really dependent on the success of several core technologies. So before the metaverse can actually be here today, there are other techs such as VR, AR, NFTs, web3. All those, all the acronyms that you want to throw at it, they all need to independently succeed first before they can be wrapped under this greater metaverse umbrella.

Will Page: So, it's a, a combination of snowballing effect, perhaps which tells you why this time is going to be different.

Ernest Lee: Exactly, exactly.

Richard Kramer: So well, let me, let me step in In here. Because there's one thing that does feel to me like a big challenge. And you know, how do you make this relevant to Will's parents, or my parents, or your parents? And for a lot of people, there's a, a couple of barriers they've got to overcome. First is strapping something onto their face, which obscures all of their vision, and replaces it with a alternative version of reality, whether mixed or, or full virtual reality. And that for the moment, makes a lot of people feel uncomfortable. Uh, even when you're watching, uh, in the cinema, or watching your television even up close, you still have your peripheral vision, you still have that sense, and you lose that.

And I guess the other thing is, the getting beyond the experiment phase. So I've seen back to the days of Jaron Lanier or a second life in video games, you've seen a lot of these experimental virtual worlds that people are happy to imbibe or get themselves into for a period of time. But how does this go from experiment to mainstream and go from the sort of 20 something dare I say, bro cohort to something that that goes through the ages, from the teens, to the oldies, and across both sexes as well?

Ernest Lee: Right now, when people think of VR, kind of like I alluded to in the beginning, um, they automatically think about gaming. And if you just focus on gaming and build this as a gaming device, then it will remain forever niche. But to be able to expand and, and reach a broader audience, there are a lot of factors that are actually out of our control, and a few in our, within our control. Some of those factors out of our control our, uh, headset adoption. And what drives adoption is the comfort of these headsets, the price point of these headsets, social acceptance. And all of that we believe will be solved in time through these big tech companies. And in terms of social acceptance, that's something that we're solving by making it cool.

By working with artists like Megan Thee Stallion, who are trailblazers in their own right, to be able to show people that, hey, there's actually other used cases for this technology. Because as I mentioned before with VR, it's about taking people in, to places and experiences that aren't possible in reality. So right now, that is very, that context is very clearly focused on gaming, but we need to expand that outside of just gaming. And that's kind of how we will reach the masses.

Richard Kramer: The other one is, you know, how do you make this relevant not just to teens and, and young people, but to, to Will's parents, to my parents, to, to generations that otherwise wouldn't be natural fits for the technology?

Ernest Lee: Well my first goes to Tik Tok, um, just since that's obviously the latest craze of these past few years, which started off as a karaoke app for Gen Z. Uh, but now, you know, everyone's on TikTok. Um, so similarly, I think you'll, you know, start with things that are making it accessible and cool, such as VR concerts. But you know, if people are start seeing in the workplace, they start seeing in training. We knew that Walmart's had a big push on using VR to integrate, are using VR to train their workforces. Once it starts becoming more pervasive around society, and people are using it more on a daily basis. And people are more familiar with them, they see it in their households, it'll become more accessible to our parents.

Will Page: Then, you mentioned Walmart, which is interesting in terms of an indicator that could take this whole thing mainstream. But I want to wheel back to something Richard said about people potentially feeling a bit uncomfortable with it. And then your reference to Megan Thee Stallion. I mean, you really did have the queues in Austin, Texas. No live band had cues as long as AmazeVR, you really had the cues, you had the hot act of the whole conference. And what we can't do is say to our audience, just go on YouTube and check out the experience because it's our VR experience. I need you to, uh, use the word imagine here. Get a paintbrush and try and tell our listeners what they would experience at 100 seat capacity AmazeVR concert of Megan Thee Stallion.

Ernest Lee: In a very literal sense, um, what they'll experience is about a 25-minute VR concert experience. Um, this comprised of two parts. The first part is this gamified introduction that is welcoming you into the hottieverse world. Um, so when you go in, you'll be able to see your friends next to you. As avatars, you'll be able to compete with them as you collectively unlock the hottieverse to start the VR concert itself. And also that gamified intro, um, you don't need to, uh, know how to play games, you don't need controllers. It's very intuitive. And we wanted to make it accessible for people who have zero experience with VR.

And then that transitions into the core of that experience, uh, which is a four song, four world experience where Meg is within arm's reach of you performing directly for you in the surreal, otherworldly worlds. Since we capture her with our own custom 3d VR cameras, it's 9k plus. The video resolution is, is really quite good and pretty realistic. What's been so satisfying for us is seeing audiences leave the auditorium and they're not talking about what an incredible technologically advanced experience this is, what a great VR experiences. People are talking about how they made eye contact with Megan, how Megan made them watched.

Will Page: Wow.

Ernest Lee: How Megan made them excited. It's searing a real memory. So the memory isn't going to a theater and watching something that's across from you and you're separated in a different world. But the memory is that you're actually encountering back herself and you're becoming her best friend and going into her worlds for this performance like none other.

Will Page: World grabbed you move seeing Bono clo- close up live or seeing Meg Thee Stallion and close up on VR?

Ernest Lee: Yes, seeing Meg close up is really an experience like none other. It was, uh, it was pretty captivating. But that Bono experience, even though I couldn't rewatch that experience, I haven't seen it again. Because I feel like it would tarnish my memory of that experience, just because I know the quality back then was quite terrible. So I don't want to ruin that memory. But that really was a truly, um, incredible experience.

Richard Kramer: I've got two more questions to dig into. One is just to help people understand, you've got all the tech giants involved here. And whether it's Facebook renaming itself Meta to capitalize on the metaverse, or Google or Microsoft with the HoloLens or, or Apple with whatever they'll do, and Sony. How is it that you guys, uh, a company like AmazeVR, how do you play nicely with all these big tech giants in the sandbox? Are you agnostic to who you work with? Or how does, how does it work your relationship with these kind of giant companies that are so, so dominant in the economy in so many ways?

Ernest Lee: Yes. So the platform that we're building for VR concerts, will be headset agnostic. So we're creating it so that it can actually interoperate with all of these headsets across the board. Because if our dream and our mission is for every artist to have their own VR concert, and they may someday, uh, we need to make it as accessible as possible. I think what also helps is that we're not focused on building the hardware. We're not focused on building headsets, on building those ecosystems necessarily. But we're just laser focused on building our corner of this VR music metaverse itself. I think the value that we're providing is that we are only creating VR concerts. You know, we had Amaze, we decided to focus purely on music back in 2019, before the pandemic even started. We are really trying to provide that 10x experience, something that is truly differentiated, creating a new category within music for artists to be able to tap into, to reach their fan base and broaden their fan base in a completely creative and unique way.

Richard Kramer: I've been covering tech for close to 30 years. And something that I recalled the guys at Nokia, which for a long time was the largest handset vendor in the world, smartphone vendor in the world. And, uh, one of the most innovative tech companies in the world, even though it is now largely dearly departed. But the guys that Nokia, back when they were just thinking about the smartphones in probably 2005 to 2008 timeframe, they had this concept of SWIS, See What I See. And the idea was you could hold up your phone and live stream what was going on in front of you so that someone else could share in your experience. And I guess that brings the question to my mind. How do you think about these music experiences? Are they something that ultimately is meant to be shared? Will, and I might go to a music festival and together we get to see a band. That's an event we're going to share together.

But I guess, when you're filming these concerts, you might not even have an audience there. You're creating this content so it can be shared individually, but not between people. How do you think about building that metaverse if we think about it in terms of something we all participate in together at the same time? Or are you building the kind of individual experience we can all decide to tap into whenever we have free time or whenever we're looking for a bit of entertainment? How do you think about those two poles of what you're trying to accomplish?

Ernest Lee: Yeah, that's, that's a great question. So you know, when you're building for the Internet, or the web pages, it's, it's a very flat screen, the users on one side, and then you're watching something on a phone, on dis- display on a monitor, on TV, whatever you, you know, you can imagine. But when you're creating for the metaverse, the whole value of it is to display somebody, to teleport something to a new world. And also understanding that music is a communal experience. Music brings people together. So we need to be able to create a virtual place for fans to be able to come together and build community and have meaningful things to do that are all within the music realm. And also, of course, to be able to see shows and share that experience together as well.

You know what you saw at South By, yes, it's a pretty, you know, individual experience. But that's really just the foundation, and it's the starting point of everything that we're building. The interactive, and the social elements that are in the intro are actually the modules that we'll be integrating into the VR content itself, so that you can actually interact with it more you can actually socialize with people in it. And all those elements will heighten the sense of presence to make that experience even more real and even more memorable.

Richard Kramer: So with that, I think, uh, we're all going to teleport our way to the break. There's a lot to think about in terms of how we're going to fill the rest of the evening now with all the virtual concerts we can dip in and out of and all the various friends we might want to share those experiences with. It's a fascinating concept. We'll come back and talk about it more in the second half with Ernest Lee and Will Page talking about the metaverse on Bubble Trouble.

Will Page: Welcome back to Bubble Trouble with myself, my co-host, Richard Kramer, and our very special guest Ernest Lee, the co-CEO of AmazeVR. The company which had longer queues at South by Southwest, and any live band sweating out on stage. And Ernest, you've opened our eyes to a lot of stuff in part one. I, I want to go down the rabbit hole with you for a second. But you mentioned Walmart and VR in the same sentence. Most people tuning into the show did not expect to hear that. So can you just unpack that for us? You're saying that Walmart, who I think of as a sort of big box retailer across America, is actually experimenting and embracing the VR?

Ernest Lee: Yeah, for the past few years, actually, they were working with a company, I believe, called Strivr. Where they would, I don't know exactly how many headsets they had purchased, but it was, uh, significant amounts. Now I need to go back and look how much more effective it is. But it was significantly more effective, the training in VR, as opposed to trying to put people through videos and have people on their laptops and clicking through things while they're doing a million other things. Um, so the value of it is because there's two sides of the sword here with, it's a double edged sword in terms of having a full undivided attention. So yes, it kind of blocks you off from the real world if you're having this experience. But also, it blocks you off from the real world. So you can have your undivided attention to be focused on the training. And using VR, it actually, it encourages the user to have to participate to interact with it and to have actual consequence in your decisions.

Will Page: With VR, I remember when I wrote the book, Tarzan economics, I have this line in this is what price is your undivided attention. When attention spans are so short, they're so fickle, there's so many distractions out, out there, the counterfactual VR really appreciates in this currency. Because now I know I've got you, now you can't be distracted. So it's what did I prevent, as opposed to what did I achieve. And I guess what Walmart is thinking is, here's a way of knowing that this training sunk in. It could be very well the training, health and safety, it could be [inaudible 00:17:16], light course training, which is not that relevant. But you know, now I know I've catched your attention, there has to be a market value to that.

Ernest Lee: Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, one of my friends, he's a, he's an ortho and at his hospital, they have some VR training aids as well. And what's really great about it is they can recreate different simulations that typically would require some time and resources to set up. But using VR, they're able to run through these simulations really quickly, time and time again.

Will Page: Yeah, that's exactly what I'm thinking is it, it might happen through the front door. We talked about Travis Scott fortnite, we can talk about Meg Thee Stallion on AmazeVR, I get it. But it can also happen through the backdoor where adoption is happening during the nine to five for the working day, not the five to nine of the social evening.

Richard Kramer: Well, I could certainly tell you, as a parent, whenever you tried to do online learning and YouTube was a browser tab away, you never got undivided attention. I think there is something to be said for blocking out all stimuli. I guess my follow on question would be, what's the duration of that undivided attention? For those of us who practice a little mindfulness in the morning, doing 10 minutes and really focusing yourself for 10 minutes on your breath or something else is that already feels like hard work. So what's the optimal time that people can spend in these environments before they wind up feeling disoriented, and having an out-of-body experience?

Ernest Lee: The general rule of thumb in the VR industry is about 20 minutes for a new user. That after 20 minutes that you'll have some eye fatigue, you might feel a little motion sickness, you need to take a break. Um, but what we found was really interesting and actually knowing that, that drove our decision to keep Meg's VR concert on, on the shorter side. So it's only four performances and the total experience with the gamified intro is about 25, 30 minutes. But it was on that shorter side, because we felt like that was the most that her fans would be able to tolerate. But the biggest critique that we've, and really the only critique that we've been getting from the shows is that people want more, people want longer. They want to see more performances. That's a great problem to have. That's something very exciting for us. And that's something that our creative team has taken back.

Uh, and is starting to implement for our future shows as well to be able to lengthen the shows and have more songs, knowing that the audiences can actually tolerate more. And I think a lot behind that tolerance is also the quality of the experience itself. So if you were up on your feet for 20 minutes, let's say this a high latency, when you're moving around, playing games, shooting zombies, hitting ping pong balls, uh, you're getting quite disoriented. But for something that we're building, it's, you know, with VR concerts, it's a seated experience. So you're not moving your head too much, um, which causes some of that motion sickness.

Will Page: And you say the audience is seated. But I've seen videos of people watching Meg Thee Stallion in Houston, yes, they're seated but they're not sitting still. Is that a fair comment?

Ernest Lee: We've had some people actually up and twerking outside of their seats. But even with that sort of excitement, at, the resolution is quite high, the latency is really low. It's not as motion sickness inducing as some of these other experiences out there.

Will Page: And one other benefit of what you're doing, I just want to throw into the pot there is a city location. So when you're touring through VR, you're not driving 50 trucks around America with load ins and the loadouts, and an environmental issue there if you want to touch on that, too. But when I worked on the Billy Eilish live stream of 2020, I was looking at which cities were responding to the concert that she wouldn't normally tour in first place. I think that's another extension, which is the may be the case that Megan Thee Stallion has got a huge fan base in Vancouver, but she's never been up there to tour. With VR, that becomes much more accessible.

Ernest Lee: That's something, we're, we're really excited about. Because pretty much every city has a movie theater. And it's seeing this first showcase with Megan the stallion, as we transform these movie theater auditoriums into these VR concert venues. It's really exciting because especially with the VR concert portion, that is, you know, it's a, it's a one on one experience between the artist and the fan. But when you're experienced in a theater, something we did not expect was how communal and how loud it was going to get. So even though once the VR concert portion started and you can't see each other's avatars. Um, you knew everyone else was there, and people were up and dancing and screaming and in their friends.

Will Page: Fascinating. I just want to ask, and ag- again, on this thrust of this conversation about when does this thing go mainstream. Do you see a day where tours don't start on the road but the order of events changes? So there's, they start with VR first, and then go out into trucks touring stadiums and theaters second. Do you see that happening in next 12 months, 24 months or is that a distant memory?

Ernest Lee: You know, I obviously can't tell the future. I'm not exactly sure how that will roll out. But our belief is that what we're building, these VR concerts, is a completely new category of entertainments. And as an artist's most valuable commodity is our time. You have to be quite careful with how they devise their overall artist strategy. So right now, you know, they're, when they're thinking about their strategy, they're thinking of streaming, touring, partnerships, whatever. Um, but we hope to add to that mix, VR concerts as well. So instead of something that's going to displace tours, displace in-person concerts, we see it as an additive thing. Something that's going to be another tool for artists to create and to connect with fans. Um, and something that can, that needs to work harmoniously with other core components within their artist strategy.

Will Page: I presume the same goes for Walmart, whether it be touring with bands or trading within department stores, it's additive to what's already there, as well.

Ernest Lee: Exactly.

Richard Kramer: Let me, let me ask one other use case that sort of seems to overlap somewhat, and comes up a lot in the VR world, which is travel and sort of the ability to experience other places. We all have way more than five senses. I think there's something like 28, uh, that we have. A sense of, of being in motion, the sense of impending danger, the sense of hot and cold, we have a lots of other senses to tap into. And those are obviously a, a really integral part of the sort of travel experience and, and being somewhere else. Anywhere we go, the, the air and the taste different, the food tastes different, everything tastes different. How do you think a, a VR concert experience can tap into the venue, the locale? What are ways that, that you can see the technology evolving, where you're going to tap into more than just our sight and sound?

Ernest Lee: There's actually a lot of research and work being done in terms of how do we tap into those other senses. So I've seen other startups that are creating ways to, to dispense smells. Because if you actually smell something, um, it can really transfer you to these different experiences. There are some, some haptic motion chair companies that also integrate fans. So let's say you're flying through an experience, and you feel that wind against your skin, that heightens that sense of presence. There's the company, The Void, and they do, they're focused on LBEs, location based entertainment. And they did this experience with Star Wars, where you're actually, you walk up on this, this open elevator and it's over this lava pit. And you actually feel the heat, um, as you're descending into that lava pit. And I remember I was with a friend, who was carefully tiptoeing looking over the edge, and I grabbed my friend from the back and he jumps as if he was going to fall into the lava pit.

Richard Kramer: And I, I remember one of the, one of the first HTC VIVE demos I saw probably 2016 or so. Uh, they had this where you were in the spaceship and they slowly remove panels that you're standing on. And you look down and you realize the last panel just slid away and you, you do get the sensation that you should be falling through the floor through space. But let me move on to the last section of, of our Bubble Trouble podcast where we ask our guest to, uh, indulge in a little experimental, uh, psychedelia in terms of stuff they look out for. One of the other senses they tap into their smell, and that's smoke signals. So we're going to ask you some of the sort of, uh-oh moments you see, when you hear people talk about new areas like the metaverse or VR.

What are the things that make you go, ah, you know, this gets me worried that we're on the cusp of a bubble here? Maybe it's claims that are just wildly overreaching. Maybe it's something about what the technology can or can't do. But what are the kinds of things that you want our listeners to be able to look out for when they hear all this discussion of the metaverse and say, no, that's not really what we're talking about, let's get back to, uh, trying to see our favorite band up close and personal?

Ernest Lee: I think one thing that always throws me off is if I hear people saying that they're building the metaverse. Um, that's, that's always a very interesting thing for me to hear. Because one day the metaverse will be as ubiquitous as the internet. And in that, it's not a single entity that's actually building the metaverse, but it's a collective whole. And it's something that's really a broader concept that will tie together all the technologies of tomorrow, essentially. And then for VR when I hear people coming to me saying, hey, Ernest, you got to, you got to check this out. This is going to be the coolest VR experience and you don't even need a headset. I'm like, a VR experience that you don't need a headset, okay. Um, and it's, you know, I've heard people say, oh, yeah, I mean, the world we live in now is a virtual reality. Um, what do we, you know, what actually is real? So when I hear things like that, that also throws me for a bit.

Richard Kramer: Yeah, we had a previous guest, uh, talking about crypto and talking about red pilling. And of course, when you take the red pill in the matrix, you can't go back. Uh, you've gone down in one direction, there's no, there's no going back. And I guess for some people that might have bought crypto at much higher prices, they might feel like they've swallowed the wrong pill right now. But I, I guess that VR experience without the headset is just reality. And is there something in between VR, and I know people talk about mixed reality a lot? Do you see a place for an experience which isn't as tech hardware intensive, that starts to give people a taste of what they might get in a virtual world without obliging them to fully immerse themselves?

Ernest Lee: Today there's a pretty clear delineation between VR, which is complete immersion, right? It's, it takes you out of your current place, and puts you in a completely new world. And then with AR, which is really just these digital wares overlaying the physical world we're in now. And then also reality, which is none of that. But it really is going to be a spectrum someday. And that VR and AR are two ends of the same spectrum.

Will Page: Mm-hmm.

Ernest Lee: But before we can even have a single MR headset, with, you know, Apple is the worst kept secret in the world that's coming out. You know, in the near future, we can expect that here soon. I think, in the future, people will be able to just wear a single headset or glass and eventually, maybe even contact lenses. And it will just be a seamless experience from VR to AR depending on what the moment calls for.

Richard Kramer: If you think about that Harry Styles concert that Will went to the other week, you've got the recorded music, which is on Apple Music. You've got Harry Styles doing a live streaming performance for Apple, that will clearly be recorded. And then what you're saying is you're AmazeVR will take that and create a package a much richer experience out of it, where you can experience Harry Styles as if you're on stage with him in a sort of up close and personal way. That is just the next layer of immersion that people are going to go for.

Ernest Lee: Right. Being able to experience the artist closer than, than ever before in any kind of show. Um, but also to be able to interact in the space and interact with environments and to be living in these surreal CG worlds that's not possible in reality. Uh, I think that's what's really exciting for artists is that the only limitation is themselves and the creativity itself.

Will Page: You're making me think louder on the screen, it's a wrap there. It's just how many times have you heard fans go to stadium concert say I coughed up $100 to see a dot in horizon. And I guess the way that your company is looking at that remark is very different from the way the tour promoters are looking at that remark. Which is you don't need to see a dot the horizon anymore, we can, we can solve that with technology. So there is the, the aspect of being there, being there in person. But then there is the downside of, you know, 100 bucks for a dot horizon, is that really good value for money? Or is there a better way to experience the art form? And this podcast has been an education for me. I think both myself and Richard, the pendulum swings for us to be a cynical metaverse, being an optimist. And I think you've swung us in the opposite direction.

I knew that you guys are cracking it with music because I experienced it firsthand. I did not expect to be discussing travel and training and Walmart using VR for training, they really hit me for six and to start thinking about adopting and travel. So maybe the adoption comes through the back door close to the front door, but it's, it's common. That's the thing that we're helping the audience prepare for. So with that, I want to thank Richard Kramer, my co-host and yourself Ernest Lee. And encourage folks to follow you at AmazeVR. And this has been Bubble Trouble and we'll be back with you next time.

Richard Kramer: If you're new to Bubble Trouble, we hope you follow the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Bubble Trouble was produced by Eric Newsom, Jesse Baker, and Julia Nat at magnificent noise. You can learn more at bubbletroublepodcast.com. Will Page and I will see you next time.